What Mission Success Really Means

David 0:05

It has the idea of God, I want to go if you'll show me where and when. And so it's like a like a door that would that would open out, but the doorknob is just, you know, it's got it's on the latch. And so you're leaning your weight on there so that if God ever turns the doorknob, it's not a matter of debating, well, I don't know, what do we think? I don't know, really missions? It's not that at all. It's like, boom, we're out of here.

Mark 0:39

What does success in missions actually look like? Is it planning a church? Seeing people come to Christ, training pastors? Or could one of the clearest signs of success be reaching the point where the people you came to serve no longer need you, because they're now carrying the gospel forward themselves? Welcome to Kingdom Without Borders. My guests today are David and Karen Brown. And for more than three decades, South Africa has been woven into the story of their lives. But this conversation isn't simply about 32 years of missionary service. It's about what God does across those years, and the people they served, and the churches they helped establish, and in themselves. We talk about a family decision made after a frightening night in Johannesburg. We hear about lives change through the simple, ordinary work of evangelism and discipleship, and we follow the story all the way to a room filled with South Africans, starting their own mission board and preparing to take their own place in the Great Commission. We also talk about how living across cultures changes the way that you see people, ministry, and even the kingdom of God itself. There's a lot of laughter in this conversation, some hard-earned perspective, and 32 years of lessons that can't really be learned from a textbook. Here's my conversation with David and Karen Brown. Dave

Leaning On The Door Of Missions

Mark 2:05

and Karen, it's so great to have you with us today. As we get started, would you, Dave, just kind of give me a little bit of overview, introduce uh you and Karen and your ministry, and then we'll jump into some uh more questions about how the Lord has used you all in South Africa and beyond.

David 2:21

Uh thanks, Mark. Great to be on your uh podcast with you here. That's a that's an it's an honor and a privilege. We we've been involved in missions for about 32 years. Um before that, I was a Philadelphia lawyer. We were both kind of trained for ministry by doing ministry in a local church in southeastern Pennsylvania, um, kind of mentored and trained by pastors. And um when the opportunity came, we went to South Africa in 1995 for the first time. Uh, we've been involved with three church planting projects and um a church revitalization more recently. And I guess you could argue maybe a fourth church plant or revitalization, depending on how you couch it. If you if you do ministry among the rural poor in an African context, it takes a long while to build trust and transfer God's truth, the gospel, to them in their own context with uh sensitivity and understanding for how they think and the hurdles they face in responding to the gospel. So the Seven Rivers outreach is something we've been very much involved with in the past eight years, um, building a community center in the middle of a Zulu village, uh, getting the gospel out to preschool children, to primary school children, and to uh marginalized women who have been involved in anything from making jewelry out of beads to um knitting dolls and animals and that kind of thing. And we, after after teaching and sowing seed for about four years, five years, finally started to see some fruit as they come to Christ and are willing to say, Christ alone, no ancestors, I'm not going to worship ancestors. We've had what we call jokingly referred to as three missionary journeys to Africa. The first was Santon Bible Church. Then I served a while for the European um collection of countries up there in Europe, and we planted a church around our home in Atlanta, and then a third church plant was back in South Africa. Then we came back to the U.S. and taught at a Bible college, and then the Lord opened up the opportunity to go back again and work with Seven Rivers and work toward this Zulu church plant at the same time revitalizing an Indian church outside of Durban. So, yeah, those are three missionary journeys.

Mark 4:57

You definitely have been busy over the last uh 30 plus years in that regard. Uh, can you do me a favor and take us back uh before you went to South Africa, before you started your missionary work? And uh something you said in the questionnaire that I sent you, you said, David, that you described yourselves as leaning on the door of missions. Uh, what do you mean by that?

David 5:20

That's a phrase Karen and I kind of coined. It has it has the idea of God, I want to go if you'll show me where and when. And so it's like a like a door that would that would open out, but the doorknob is just, you know, it's got it's on the latch. And so you're leaning your weight on there so that if God ever turns the doorknob, it's not a matter of debating. Well, I don't know, what do we think? I don't know, really, missions? It's not that at all. It's like boom, we're out of here. As soon as you show up. Yeah. So it's it's leaning. Our the church that we were from originally in southeastern Pennsylvania was 950 people, and they had 30 young married couples. It was 30 plus. It was amazing, an amazing time. And many of them were Christian college and Bible college graduates, uh, not necessarily Bible majors or pastoral majors or anything, but but just really grounded in God's word and trying to have a marriage that honored the Lord and raise kids in a way that honored the Lord. But that church started an institute which started some more formalized training, and the pastors were very much into meeting with you and discipling and so forth. So it released 10 families to the mission field in 12 years. That was, and that Mark, that was that was kind of wild because every missions conference it was like, God's calling you guys this year. It's like, uh-uh. And we're turn is it now? Yeah, right. We watched the Wagners go to Ireland and the Willoughby's go to Berlin and uh Nelsons go to the Philippines, and we're like, oh, we can do that. Oh, we could do that. So though we were enthused and leaning on the door of missions, we we were kind of there was a heaviness to this of saying, God, you really have to show us clearly. You know, I mean I was practicing law. We had four kids, we had a nice little home outside Valley Forge National Park. I mean, you know, life, life was good, but we wanted to, we wanted to go, we wanted to serve, but we wanted God to somehow make it clear.

Mark 7:36

Hmm. Yeah, I was gonna ask, but that knowing that you were practicing law and you were establishing a career, if you will, um, was what was that tension like between making the decision to leave what you had built uh to follow this calling or falling through the door, I guess, that got it opened uh towards missions?

David 8:00

We had both been Christian school teachers to start right out of right out of Christian college. During that era, early 80s, I became involved with a friend in politics. This is back in the Reagan era. And a lot of the guys I was hanging out with ran for office. Some of them are still in political office. Wow. And I thought, do I want to do politics or should I stay as a Christian school teacher or should I go into ministry? I mean, I I don't know if I really feel, you know, to be a pastor, you have to be called or crazy or both. And I thought, I just can't see Pastor Dave Brown. That just didn't sit well with me. But Karen, my wife, grew up in Norway. So she was an MK. So she had lived cross-culturally, was trilingual, spoke Swedish and Norwegian and English fluently. And that was, I mean, that was one of the great drawing points for me to her, was this girl's amazing. This is fascinating. So I had this love for the foreign. Um, so when I when I went to law school, it was like, Lord, do you want me in politics? Lord, do you want me in ministry? Or Lord, do you want me to be a lawyer? So I it wasn't like I had a clear vision. They they say law school doesn't teach you the law, it teaches you how to think like a lawyer. And I thought, that's good preparation for

Career Tension, Grief, And God’s Provision

David 9:30

ministry, for preaching, for missions, any kind of organizing, thinking logically. And so I had to practice law long enough in order to pay off the bills from law school. So it wasn't it wasn't like I was aspiring to, you know, this this pattern for 20, 30, 40 years of being in law, not at all.

Mark 9:51

Um, Karen, I have a question. Was your um sense of God's leaning happening at the same time and same place as David's? Or did God bring you too along differently to this decision?

Karin 10:04

Well, that's neat that you would ask because so often women can be the maybe the deterrent or put the brakes on, especially if they have little children. But we had talked a lot about this even when we were dating, just leaning on the door. And um, not all visionary kids want to go back into it. They they have some hard experiences, and there were some things that I needed to kind of process well with David. David helped me a lot. I struggled with the idea of trying to raise support, that was a hard thing for me, and David helped me to to see, you know, that we're doing a job that the Lord has asked the church to do. And when I'm a lawyer, I get paid for doing a job that maybe a person can't do. I can do the legal research and help to prepare their case and to defend them in court. And he said, as a missionary, we can go maybe to the uttermost part of the earth, and we do it because the whole church is supposed to do these things, but we need to give good reports, and it's really helpful for me to kind of get a good, healthy view on the aspect of what it meant to be missionary, and then the year that God was preparing to call us to open that door that we were leaning on. Um my mom died very suddenly. I was very close to her. She had led me to Christ when I was a little girl, and she was very, very dear. We had a very close relationship. She died from an allergic reaction to a new medicine that was given to her. It was very fast. And um it just when I saw her in the casket, I remember thinking, Karen, one day you're gonna be in a casket. You only have so many days, and I felt like you know, I can see his mom's body, but this her spirit is not here anymore. This is just a shout, and it was such a good reminder for me to live with eternity in mind, and so when it became clear that the Lord was opening the door, there was some missionaries that came back from the field and they basically targeted us. They said, We want you guys to come and help us. And instead of saying, Oh, we can't do that, we both felt this. Why not? Why can't you go? And so we got to put feet on, yeah.

David 12:52

The other thing holding us back was law school debt, but sadly, we had a friend of ours die, nuclear physicist in an airplane crash. He was a guy in our church, strong believer, leaving a wife and five kids behind. And I handled that case, settled it, brought home a big fee from that case, which just wiped out the law school debt. We were, as we say, we were rich for six months. So Karen, Karen's mom, that emotional tether was gone. Now the financial tether was gone, and we were like, Here am I, Lord, send me. So we actually told one of the missionaries coming home, we came home from Ireland, and we said, We're about we're about ready to join you. And and so in our mind, we knew something was coming, but we didn't know exactly what.

Mark 13:42

Gotcha. So can

First Steps In South Africa

Mark 13:45

you guys tell me what did South Africa feel like when you first stepped into that world? Like, you know, go back to those first moments when you're getting off the airplane and you're you're you're you're here to stay. Uh, what what was it like?

David 14:02

Well, we were greeted by a big team that we had like eight units there in Johannesburg. Um, they had been at our house in Pennsylvania, most of them, and had talked about uh honestly, frankly, you know, we got major crime issues under the old apartheid system. Whites lived in one area, blacks lived in other areas, Indians, Chinese, they all had to live separately. Um, and that kind of kept the crime in those poorer areas. But now the laws were lifted, and so everyone was everywhere. And so, yeah, we had to talk about car hijackings and you know, uh driving defensively, um, not at a traffic light, not pulling right up behind the guy in front of you, but leaving leeway in case somebody comes with a gun you could somehow pull out, not pulling up right up to your gate. All our homes were gonna have walls around them with electric gates, but don't pull your vehicle up against your gate because then you're a hijacked thing. 80% of hijackings happened at your gate. And um we were told, you know, people will shoot you dead for your cell phone. So you you must you know stay in the proper areas. Uh the the shot there are nice malls, shopping centers, everything. So they met us at the airport, and we had um one of the uh missionaries, the guy who actually recruited us, had taken you remember the big video cameras, the massive ones. Oh, yeah. VH VHS tapes. Yeah. He had taken video of just going to school. I was driving the kids to school. And okay, here's the school where they go, and all the kids are in little uniforms like the British have. And wow, it looks like a regular school. And then they went to the mall and to the shopping, you know, shopping center, and and it it looked like Europe. And Karen said, Wow, they have tea in the morning and high tea in the afternoon. That's just like Europe. They've got really good chocolate and breads, fresh breads, warm in the morning, like the bags not even closed at the store. It's like, that's like Europe. So that was heartening, I think, to her, to me. With they were going to put us at Santon Bible Church, which was a white-collar, very fancy business area. The purpose was to plant a rich church, which is really hard planting a church with rich people because they're always away on the weekends, you know. But to plant a church that would be financially strong, that would cause other churches to be planted and fuel missions through its funding. And that that church, Sant Bible Church, has done just that. Wow. So they met us all at the airport, and then we went to stay at somebody's house. Okay, it was in a it was in a cluster complex. So a gated community, big walls, electric fence at the top, and a guard at the gate who signed you in with CCTV cameras, and then we went in, and well, wow, inside the complex, it was nice, and there were rose bushes and flowers and beautiful gardening, because you can hire a gardener for eight dollars a day. And so everyone's got beautiful gardens. And we went grocery stock, grocery shopping. That was that was a little hard. Um, some products we found, Hellman's mayonnaise. Okay, they've got it. That's good. Um, Oreos, they had them, but other things they didn't have, they didn't have key ingredients and stuff. So when we got to the church, the church had already been planted. There was about 60 or 70 people. Wow, they were warm and welcoming. There was a man there who spoke fluent Norwegian, so Karen could take off with him. Um and yeah, again, more roses and flowers out front of the church, coffee and tea time afterwards. People were very, it's a genteel society, so it was a very people were very kind. So it wasn't it wasn't a brace yourself third, you know, um, third world emerging world culture shock. It was pretty much like home in a lot of ways.

Mark 18:22

Now, is that specific? I'm sorry, go ahead.

Karin 18:24

Yeah, they were you had to drive on the other side of the road, and we had a stick shift car, so I had to get used to driving stick shift with your left hand that took a little bit of time. Uh really proud of our kids. We put them right into the public school, and they were very great. I feel like we were pretty tough on them to put them right into that, but everything was so exciting. Well, Nicholas was just in in grade one, they they say grade first and then the number over here. Um, so they were quite young, and um yeah, I think that Joshua was in grade five and Stephanie was in grade four. So it was scary for them, but they did a good job. I I got involved with ladies' Bible study, we got involved with uh teaching the young adults at our home, which was really amazing. We love that. But um, I think for the first six months we were kind of on a high, just so excited. After about six months, there were a few things that kind of hit us. We call it culture shock, where it kind of hit you what you had done, you know, you have really changed your life. For example, they have their winter in July and August, so it's really cold, but there's no Christmas, it's just cold and raw, and they don't have heating inside their home, so it was really cold.

David 20:00

And cement floors and cement walls were not even down to freezing in some of these places. Oh, it was tough. That's Johannesburg. Johannesburg's up at 6,000 feet, so it gets cold.

Karin 20:12

Yeah. I mean, one of the cool things was that our teammates took us to the game reserve and we got to see the beautiful, magnificent animals of that country. That was like so cool, you know. So there was a mixture of really cool stuff and also some challenges.

David 20:32

We arrived there in late November, and and so December, you know, Christmas came up and it's the dead of summer. So you're you're sweating like terrible decorating tree, and then you have to go out for a swim.

Mark 20:44

Yeah. I was gonna say, um, when I was in high school, my family lived in Spain, and we had like concrete houses and like marble floors, but they had like um like portable butano heaters or butane heaters. But yeah, it was uh once you got under the covers at night, you stayed there.

David 21:02

Yeah, um yeah, so our first first home for four or five months was in a cluster complex, but it was so tight, like our our entire patch of grass was maybe 20 feet wide and 25 feet long. That's just for four little kids, you know, uh 10, 9, 6, and 3, just no room to run. So after six months, we rented a house. That was the house I was telling you about that had seven crime incidents in one year, because it had a six-foot-high wall, but no electric fence around the top. And we thought, oh, but it's so lovely, and the gardens are nice. It's got a little pool because you don't have air conditioners. So if you're hot in the summer, you just dip in the pool. Again, you go through a lot of information with your teammates, and they're like, Well, okay, you're gonna need to hire a gardener and probably a maid. It's like, a maid? What? You know, these are like rich people. Outside the cities or in the cities that have maids, you know, we don't we don't have maids that they're like, just so that you know you're at risk of crime, them hitting your house if you don't hire a gardener. So I was like, well, whatever, you know, but there are some things they miss. And so we thought, well, trash day is Tuesday. And so uh I went to the hardware store, got a big plastic trash can, you know, the one with the like the wheels. And um, it's right, you you pro you do what you're used to doing, and in America, you put all of your black trash bags and all that kitchen refuse in there, and you wheel it down on trash day and you put it out by the curb. South Africa, you only put the trash bags out there. If you have them in a large bin with wheels, that's just to keep the smell down on your property. That's your convenience. But I didn't know. So I put it out, and man, that they took the trash, they took the trash can, they took everything. And I was like, Where's my trash can? What did they do? And our teammates were just howling, laughing, you know. Dude, that's a really good trash can. That cost you, I said, Yeah, it cost me like 70 bucks, you know. And they're like, that can easily be sold. That in the guy's gonna buy food by selling your trash can. Yeah, and then later I was working in the garden with a pitchfork, you know, doing something with flowers. And guy comes to the gate and he bangs on the gate and says, Master, you must you must hire me. I don't like anybody calling me master, but that's what they that's how they address people there. You must you must hire me. You need a gardener. I said, I'm an American. We don't, you know, we do our own gardening. We really love gardening. He says, You are taking my job. Look at your watch. And I looked at my watch and he says, You have money. You need to hire me. And I said, Sorry. And I just walked away and he was human and walked off. And our teammate said, You better be careful, word will spread. They will mark, look for the coke can. I was like, What? They will mash a coke can and they will put it at a certain angle on the curb

A Carjacking Attempt And A Family Vote

David 24:20

in front of your house. So, man, I was checking every night for the Coke can. But I didn't actually see, I don't think, any Coke can. But eventually we hired a gardener, and he was he was a good help. He didn't speak a stitch of English, but yeah.

Mark 24:36

Now, um, I know David, you shared uh, and Karen, you probably want to weigh in on this too, that probably one of the most serious experiences that you mentioned was being carjacked in 1997, I believe. Um, anything about that story you want to share and maybe how the Lord helps you through that? I would I would assume that probably filled you with a lot of fear and apprehension after that.

Karin 24:57

Yeah, it was uh a Friday afternoon, uh actually early evening. We normally had youth, um young adults at our house. But that evening we were gonna show uh a video uh against abortion, and they had invited so many people that they couldn't fit in our living room. So we were gonna have youth at another house that was bigger, but Ellie was pretty little, and I needed to get her home and get her in bed. So I came home alone with her, and as I was coming in, uh we had an electric opener and the gate opened. I went in and I backed in to the parking place like we usually do, and two men had followed me in through the driveway, and then there was a third man that showed me a weapon. It was obvious that he was the leader, and he they wanted the car. And we were gonna have a short-term missionary lady come and live with us for a little bit. So all her suitcases were in the back, but she was at the use, and I just, you know, you never know what you're gonna do when it really hits you. We'd heard so many stories.

David 26:14

Plus, we had just we had just paid off the car, plus we just filled it up with petrol.

Karin 26:20

Yeah, and we just felt like this car was so needed for the ministry. I anyway, I said no, absolutely not. We are not gonna do this. And I had this, you know, wrinkle in my forehead, and I was pointing. I tried to lay on the horn and make a lot of noise. But of course, that was really rather foolish because all they would have to do is to shoot me and came out and get me out of the way. But um the gate started to go, it was on a timeline, it started to close by itself, and that probably saved our lives. Um they got a little bit confused, the guys that were almost ready to bash in windows right by the car, and they kind of looked at each other and they actually ran out. Then the main guy was pushing on the gate. Usually, those gates, if they hit something, then they stop and they open again, and you get another 30 seconds or whatever before it closes, but there was something wrong with our gate, praise the Lord. So the one side closed, he did mess up the other one, and then he too went out. And I saw that, so I pushed the button to open it and then pushed it to close it so that it closed properly, and they would have to climb over to give us a little more time. And I said, Ellie, we have got to get inside. And she was scared because I was acting so bizarrely with screaming and you know, doing the horn and everything. And she said, We really need our daddy, and I said, We do, but we gotta move. So we got in the house and I did all the there were three locks on the front door, and then we ran into the shower in the bathroom that had cement around the edges, and we sat on the floor and we were both crying, and we heard our dogs go crazy at the front door. So they were they had climbed over and were trying to get in. And as I'm sitting there and so scared, and the Lord reminded me that earlier in the day there had been a young lady in our youth group who was actually in the university, and she had some hard things that she was going through, and she had called me and said, Auntie Karen, I really would like to talk to you. But that meant that I had to go to the university, pick her up, and take her back to our home and talk to her, and then return her to school. So we're looking at at least two hours, you know. And I almost said no, but praise the Lord. I said, I'm coming, I'm coming, I'll come get you. And I did that. And as I was sharing with Lauren all these principles from God's word and reminding her of the promises in God's word, that He is always with us, that He will not test us above what we're able. I share with great confidence to her. And as I'm sitting in that shower on the floor that night, I thought, oh, that was for me too. That was not just for Lauren, that was for me. You wanted to remind me of those things. And so it was helpful to be able to know that the Lord was with me. And after a while, I crawled out. I was able to call our coworkers, and they were up there in a few minutes. They contacted David, and he came with a whole bunch of guys, teenage guys that were gonna protect us, and um, and uh, you know, it was a a time for us to evaluate. The next day, David had a family meeting with all of our children, and he said, I need you to talk to me because last night mom and Ellie could have could have died, and I, as your father, I need to know, is this too much for us? Do we need to go back to America? And Joshua, our oldest, he started talking first, and he said, People are getting saved, people are growing in the Lord. I think Satan's trying to scare us. I say we stay and fight, he said, you know, and David said, Well, maybe we won't fight, but maybe we should stay. But all of them taught, yeah. But it was a a time that I think was very it was a defining moment for us because it was like, Okay, Lord, you you may ask us to give our lives for you, but we want to do your will, whatever it is.

Mark 30:57

That's awesome. So you guys obviously decide to stay, right? And then and then and at this point, you're working with the Santon Bible Church. Correct. And you had mentioned um that in about a three-year period, the church grew basically doubled in size, from 80 to about 160 believers. And you said about 90% of those people were new converts. Correct. Um, what was what was happening like in that place? Uh, what was taking place, or what do you think it was that was going on that was causing such remarkable growth amongst those people?

David 31:32

You know, there's no use writing any books or anything. It had nothing to do with techniques or programs, it's just a work of the spirit.

Joy, Love, And Grassroots Evangelism

David 31:40

Oh God, it happens every once in a while. Um I think it started with the youth. We were working with the youth. Um, and there is a there is a ministry combination of we say it's joy is the hook. When you show joy and enthusiasm at seeing someone in the Bible, joy is connected with the face. So when you light up when someone comes, that is very attractive for people. And then you hold them with love. So the joy-love combination is phenomenal. And we started with seven young adults. They were somewhere in high school, just finishing high school, maybe university. They invited some friends, invited some friends, invited some friends, and we ended up with us. I guess it was maybe 35, 40, um, which is hard. Houses in those little cluster complexes were small, but we'd pack them in there and it made it all the better.

Mark 32:41

And there were super exciting. I'm sure that I'm sure just the spirit the was just um electric, I guess, would be a great approach.

David 32:51

Yeah, exactly right. And and it people would get saved, like the current associate pastor at Sant is is Garth. And Garth and Carol had just come to Christ, bad background with drugs and living together and everything else, and they were grow and go Christians. So they got in there, and it's like a month after attending the study. Carol's going through our kitchen cabinets, and we're like, Carol, can I help you? She says, I want to know how many glasses I need to have when we host the Bible study in our home one day. Wow. And I was like, Good night. She was ready. Well, yeah, and and it was this guy led this one to Christ, and then and then told me, Oh, now, Dave, you got a disciple of I said, It's not my kid. You gave birth to him. Well, I don't, I don't know how to disciple him, you know. And well, I'll disciple you to disciple him. But then he went and led someone to Christ. I was like, that was bad. You shouldn't have done that. You're only two months in the faith. But he was a he was a debate student at Vitz University, and now he's an elder, and now he's on the board of directors of a South African mission board sending out South Africans to other places. So he was an atheist, debate student, and actuarial sciences. Whoa. But these guys, they started, I guess, the mostly university kids coming to Christ, and when they're on fire, the high school kids, you know, they're all just wide-eyed. We've got university students that want to walk with Jesus. You know, I want those people to be my people. And so they started discipling the high schoolers. And some other stuff. We did some parenting courses, and that, you know, just scratch an itch of people. I don't know what to do with my kids and worked in the gospel. They started coming, they invited others to come. So our little auditoriums had 110 and we had 160. So the windows were open and people were sitting outside and down the hallways. And we we had to reconfigure the auditorium and we didn't know if it met fire code. And uh, we said, listen, this has gotten out of hand. No one is allowed to share your faith this week with anybody. All evangelism is canceled, and they just laughed. That's so disrespectful. They just laughed, you know. So it was a it was a unique time, a fun time.

Mark 35:15

So it sounds like though, really, the I guess if we want to call it secret sauce, I know there is no such thing, but it really just sounds like it was literally life on life evangelism. It was just uh one person getting excited about Jesus and telling another person, and it was just, I mean, you can't stop that. That's that's that's grassroots, you know. I mean, that's the real deal. That's exactly what we see modeled for us in the in the New Testament.

David 35:41

I think we didn't have, you know, we had teammates, very good teammates. And he was like the lead pastor, kind of this he had been a pastor 10 years. I had never been a pastor, so I was learning as I was going. Um, so we didn't have sermon prep and a lot of you know marital counseling and things like that. We were focused on developing leaders. So we were teaching in the institute that that little church started. Only eight guys we were training, but maybe 15 or 16 attended classes just to listen. Um but yeah, we had that we had the chance to do life on life and to get together with people. And you know, we had a little more time, a little more margin in our week to invest in people individually.

Mark 36:30

Yeah, I think we miss that sometimes. We get so busy. Um, and not that and not necessarily that the endeavors are sinful or wrong, but we can definitely uh squeeze out space in our life uh to have room for ministry. We probably should be really careful about that.

David 36:48

Our Wednesday prayer meeting went from 6 to 6:30. And it was like, okay, it's six, just pray. You don't share prayer requests, there's no challenge. There's maybe somebody would read a verse on prayer, but then boom. Sure. So by 6.03, we were praying, and we would pray till 6 30. And then 6 30 to 8 30 were the Bible Institute classes on Wednesday night. So we tightened everything up so as to not to over you know, over tax everyone's schedule. The idea was they kind of had Monday night off, Tuesday night they would prepare for Wednesday evening classes, Thursday often they would prepare for some kind of Friday youth ministry or weekend or something on Sunday. So they were busy because they had full-time jobs, you know.

Adeline’s Discipleship And A New Family

Mark 37:35

So yeah, yeah. Um, there's a story you guys shared uh that really seems to capture a lot of what you've watched God do there in South Africa, and it's the story of Adeline. Can you share with me uh her story and what God has done in her life? Karen, she's your disciple go.

Karin 37:54

All right. So this new girl started to come at Phoenix Fellowship. This is the Indian church uh north of Durban. I don't know if you know this. This area is the largest uh group of Indians outside of the country of India, all over the world. There's a lot of Indians. They came over in the 1800s as indentured servants to work in the sugar cane plantations, but then they stayed. British colony, right?

Mark 38:24

Yeah, when it was South Africa. Okay, right. That makes sense.

Karin 38:27

Okay, so this was a lady that came to our church there at the Phoenix Fellowship, and um she was coming a lot, she wanted to become a member, and David had uh a procedure where they they need to fill out a form and share their testimony and then meet with one of the elders to hear their story, and when she filled out her story, it was very obscure in reference to what the gospel was. And so David said, I don't think she's quite ready for um baptism and membership. I really like you, Karen, to come alongside her to meet with her. So I did, and I got to hear her story. Um her parents had divorced when she was about four. She had um tried to live with her dad and stepmother, but she ended up being kicked out of that home around the age of 12, and she really had a rough time. She, you know, was living a little bit, just with friends and men, it was not a good story. Um and one thing after the other, you could see how God would put little seeds in her life to prepare her for what was coming down the road, but it culminated in a horrible time where she actually was admitted to a psych facility because she was not, she couldn't even remember nine days of her life. And she had been saying during that time, not not consciously but subconsciously, God, why me, God, why me? And the nurses had heard that, and then when she kind of came to herself again, she was released and doing better. She just felt like she knew that there was a guy in high school that really went, he was a believer, and he went to a church, and she wanted to find out where that church was. And Damien came to Phoenix Fellowship, and so when she contacted him, he told her about the church, and she started coming. And so, as I got to walk life with her, meeting with her, I got to explain through the scriptures what it really meant to know the Lord as your savior. And she wanted it, she was wanted to grow, she wanted, she wanted so much to belong to a Christian family, uh, not just a mom and dad, but to a body, to a body of Christ, like to a church body. And she was drinking it in anytime that church was open. If it was a next year in the Bible Institute class, she was there. If it was like youth or whatever she wanted to help out, she was like drinking and drinking and drinking, and she just was growing in the Lord. She was baptized, her parents, even though they were divorced, they both came and heard her testimony. We do baptisms outside, like at a family school, and a lot of visitors come that wouldn't normally come to church, and they get to hear the gospel as the people are sharing their testimonies. And so she was just such a blessing to us because we could see that she was growing so much in the Lord. It was really a tremendous blessing. And um and then we had something a little bit sad happen in our church. One of our uh growing men, one of the sons in the pulpit, David had four guys that he was really investing in and helping them to prepare messages. And uh one of them was was named Mervyn, and he had uh a young wife, 33 years old, and a little daughter. And his wife, Sasha, she had a brain hemorrhage, a stroke, and she was in the hospital for six weeks and died. And we as a church were just devastated. It was so hard. She was a godly woman, she was trying to be a godly wife and mom. We all knew it. She was following the Lord, and the Lord chose to take her. And that was a real struggle. We just, you know, we had pleaded with the Lord, please have mercy and heal her, but it wasn't his will. And poor Mervyn had gotten so thin, he was just staying at her bedside all those days. David finally was trying to say, Mervyn, you have to release her, she is the Lord's, and whatever God does, we can trust him. He is a faithful and good God. But we were afraid for him too, because he he was so consumed with grief. But as time went on, the Lord gave him healing and peace in his heart. He trusted in the sovereignty of God. And like four or five months after that, he um started to befriend Adelaide. And she was always at church and she was always growing, and she was so strong in the Lord. She wanted to spend her life for Jesus, and he wanted to spend his life for Jesus. So last March they actually got married. And little Ruthie now has a mommy. And they are getting adjusted to life together. It's a big adjustment for Adeline to become instant mom and instant wife. And you know, it's not so easy. But what was really precious is this last uh right after they were married, they attended um missionary training school that we had, and they are very they're leaning on the door of missions. And that's just such a wonderful story of grace.

Mark 44:30

There really is. I I can imagine um what it must feel like to be a missionary that goes, shares the gospel, you see someone come to Christ, and now they are considering missions themselves. Um, that's got to really encourage your hearts and uh remind you. It makes uh obviously uh it's you know it makes the hard days easier, I would assume. Um, that you know, of course, there we have all of eternity to rejoice in what God is doing, but um I'm sure that really encourages uh your hearts when you see the fruit that's come about just from faithful service. So if I understand correctly, then obviously now that you guys have relocated back to the states, um your ministry looks very different than it did in those early church planning years. Um, and God has now really kind of moved you, it seems like into instead of doing ministry yourselves, you're now really uh helping to train others in this in this mode of uh reaching out. Can you tell us a little bit um what that looks like? I guess it probably, at least from what I understand of your story, it kind of started with Severn Rivers. Um, that beginning the um training of like in a more formal sense, is is that the case? Or would it have been before then, even?

David 45:55

No, it it's been the whole 32 years. Remember, we were trained through church-based leadership training. Okay. When we went to Santon on the first missionary journey, all right, we had that high school and college group, but the main thing that we were doing was CMI, Church Ministries Institute. So we were training the current pastor, Wayne Gordon and Garth Lombard, the assistant pastor, and their wives. We were training Dave Goff, Pete Engelbrecht, all these guys for ministry. Some of them became elders, some of them became deacons, some of them moved to New Zealand and helped to start churches, some moved to the UK and got involved with helping

Training Leaders Who Train Leaders

David 46:40

out with leading churches. So leadership training is what we're all about. The second church plant, which was in Atlanta when I was serving as Area Director for Europe, we trained Lee and Mary Lee Harper and Jeff and Nikki Elliott. And Lee and Jeff, uh, after a few years basically studying around their breakfast table, stood before an ordination council of pastors and passed with flying colors and were ordained for ministry. There was a little boy at that church who's now also, I baptized him when he was like 10 or 12, but he came through Northland, studied at Boyce a little bit, and now he's a pastor in North Georgia. So that's just the second church plant. The third church plant was Mountain View. Didn't do we started to do leadership training there. Not, I wouldn't say a whole lot came. We had Rob Bravery and Francois Jardine, who are two guys who are now leading that church. So when we went back to Seven Rivers, um, the church that is associated with Seven Rivers is the Rock of Ages Bible Church. And Pastor Sandlow and Simo and Cedric and Musa, so the the most of the leaders there, the pastor and the leaders and their wives, it was a great group. And yeah, we had load shedding in South Africa, so the power kept going out. But we were meeting on Amu's front porch. She had this little tiny enclosed porch, and we were gathered around a folding table. And for two and a half years, we poured ourselves into that group of people, Zulus, in English, but they took it because they're most of them were college graduates who were teaching high school. So they were math teachers, go figure. But um, they love to learn God's word. And so they're leading that Rock of Ages church. And then when we moved up to Phoenix, the Indian church, again, we started the Next Gen Bible Institute. And we had 26. The church only had like 70 people in it, and 26 of them were coming to the institute. So all the elders, all the deacons, some of our elders and some of our deacons were learning how to preach. I mean, one's a surgeon, another owns an insurance company, another serves uh services, ATMs. I mean, they're all all walks of life, but they know how to preach now. And so we've got a good bullpen, you know, good deep pulpit there. So leadership training. Now, what we're doing at well, at the same time as Seven Rivers, and at the same time as Phoenix, Karen and I, every once in a while, would be taking trips up to Egypt and Jordan and Uganda and teaching with National Seminary. So there you have a class of 32 Egyptians, mostly men, some women as well. Some of them are missionaries to Muslims in Berlin, Germany. Some are missionaries in South Sudan at orphanages, some are pastors in Cairo, in Alexandria, or down the Nile. Their churches being planted south on the Nile. It's called the Upper Nile as you go toward Ethiopia. What a privilege it is to train these guys, you know, who are out there doing the ministry. In Jordan, we're teaching Palestinian believers and Jordanian believers. Uh, it's fascinating. And so I teach apologetics and ethics. Um, started to teach systematic theology as well. Um, I'm going to be teaching them some teaching methods, developing a course now on teaching theology, how to teach theology in all aspects of the life of the church, and how do you do it differently in different settings? So, sure. What we're doing, yeah, we're calling it entrust, which is training leaders who train leaders. So we are training pastors, training church leaders who turn around and are teaching and training other people. We're not doing it based in South Africa. We'll be based in the U.S., but we'll probably spend a couple of months in South Africa each year because we've got new missionaries that are coming through that South African churches are sending out to the mission field, and we're involved in training them. With BMW USA, we're involved in training those missionaries, as well as training pastors in South Africa, Uganda, Jordan, and Egypt.

Mark 51:13

So it's busy. It's a big, it's a global reach, really. I mean, it's remarkable what the Lord's uh put at your at your feet uh to have that opportunity.

David 51:23

It might be in Indonesia at the beginning of the year, because there's a huge pastor's conference, and they we've just written some material um called the Seven Metaphors of the Local Church, which is evaluating church health based on the seven metaphors of the local church, you know, the body, the building, the the flock, okay, uh, those kinds of things. And then we have an invitation to the Far East uh next year, the year after. So, yeah, we were in Norway last year. So it's just as word gets out, if we can add value to the body of Christ, we want to do that.

Mark 51:58

Sure. So um as a pastor, really quick, I have a question. This uh Bible institute that you've been doing now for 30 plus years, all the way back from Stanton, is this um a curriculum that you've developed, or is it something like it? I guess my question is is it something that you do that you've that's obviously it's I we we realize it's probably developed over time, but is it basically the same thing? You're just redoing this in different locations, you the one teaching the classes? Uh I'm thinking like when you're going in there and it's just you're like you're new, right? This is right, you and Karen are teaching, or do you have other people? How is that working out?

David 52:33

The institute in South Africa, um, the current permutation of this called the Next Gen Bible Institute for the Next Generation. And you're right. Good point. It is based on the Church Ministries Institute courses, some of what I taught at Northland. Um, but it's seven or eight courses um that are all available online and all for free. You know, I've I've got connections. You can unlock and you it's all the all I wrote all the texts, so you don't have to buy books, okay. Um, all the PowerPoints, all the exams and answer keys, all the quizzes. So it's the whole course in one package. I mean, any pastor can make it his own, but next gen courses are being taught in eight locations in South Africa now to 138 students. Oh, praise the Lord. Well, the Lord has obviously gifted you. I like to write, it's like an illness. I I love to lay out Bible college courses and graduate level courses. It's like, oh, this is so fun. Let's read a few books and put it all together. So, anyway, someone's got to do it, right? So and I'll I'll mention Karen is my most valuable right arm because so often you go to these places and it's just men teaching men. But in a lot of places there are women, and Karen immediately, because they know she's a pastor's wife and has been for 30 years, they immediately connect with her. And I mean deep connection. I mean we're still in touch back and forth and on WhatsApp and reading the Bible together and accountability. And yeah, so Karen does a phenomenal job. It's not like the stay-at-home little wife kind of thing while I go out and teach. It's we come at them as a team.

Karin 54:23

One one thing I wanted to say on that is as we get older, we really have a desire to finish well. And we are seeing that it's so good for us to travel together as a couple. If we can do it, we know that that costs more money, and we have to be careful with money. But if we're able to, we can see how powerful it is for the students to see a husband and wife that have been married 44 years, that are still in love, and want to hold hands. And we often have students follow us after class and say, Could you give us some pointers on how to develop a godly marriage? And we just feel like that's really, really important.

Mark 55:11

That's really exciting. Um So just really quick, uh, just a couple uh an idea, I guess I want you to kind of clarify for me on the Seven Rivers uh venture. Um, you guys had wanted, I guess, for a long time to have a medical clinic there, uh, but the money was an issue, I think, or something along those lines. Uh, can you tell us what the Lord has done to make this a reality? Because I understand there is there either is a medical clinic or it's in the process or it's just recently finished, right?

David 55:42

Just recently finished. So our our doctors um, who is she's married to an American, and so they're American missionaries, but she is a South African medical doctor. They are in the States on furlough, um reporting and raising funds. And then our nurse, Katie, who's from um Missouri, she's in the states and also on furlough. So um they will all be back at the new year, but the building is pretty much finished. Um, yeah, Mark, it was amazing how we had a guy who was in somebody's youth group years ago, and now he's a successful businessman. And he said, I it was kind of like Barnabas in Acts chapter one. I have a piece of property I want to sell, and I want to

Free Bible Institute Courses And Team Ministry

David 56:30

give the entire proceeds. I'm guessing it's gonna be about $90,000. Could you use that? It's like, sure. So he did. The sale went through and he gifted it to Seven Rivers, transferred it over, and we got um the Tola Center, the main community center that we built, was not a technical building. It is so we designed it ourselves on Ethan Thomas on his CAD system and supervised the building, and it is a magnificent solid building. But a medical clinic is a certain thing that's covered by regulation, as you might imagine. Sure. South Africa is first world enough to suck the fun out of everything. So they uh when we started to build this, it's like, well, you got to have certain epoxy thing on the floor, and your walls have to be so wide and handicap access and pop, but so we said, okay. So we had to hire a design builder, architect builder, and he's done a good job. A little slow, but good job. And they are, I think the paint is on and uh the floor, epoxy floor is in, and now they're installing cabinetry and sinks and hooking up the plumbing and electrics, and it'll be it could be operational in September, but we're gonna wait until January. And Mark, and just a few weeks ago, we got our dispensing license, which means we can actually give out medication and sell medication.

Mark 57:57

Yeah, huge, yeah, very exciting. I know that'll be a huge help and a blessing to reach those people uh even further um there. And that's in that's north of Durban. Is that where that's south of Durban. South South of Durban.

David 58:11

If you're looking on a map closely, there's a place called Scott Borough, it looks like Scotburg. Um, and then you just go inland straight west, about 11 miles, and we're back in those hills. Okay.

Mark 58:25

After spending decades as an American missionary going to South Africa, um, we had mentioned this earlier, you're now watching South Africans prepare to go as missionaries themselves. Uh, I'm primarily thinking of the work that's been done now with BMW South Africa, this mission board uh that's now sending missionaries. Uh, can you tell me a little bit about that? And also, what did it mean personally for you to become really the last American to step off the board and now to watch the South Africans just kind of run with it?

David 58:57

You know, we talked about Santon Bible Church, how it was a God thing. Like there's there's no way really to explain it. About four years, five years ago, um, yeah, this is about 2021, right after COVID, Paul Sager, who had been the general director of BMW USA for 27 years, he had been in South Africa for 17 years prior to that. So he came back to South Africa, like coming back home, and he said, Dave, I want to explore the possibility of starting a South African mission board. And I said, there are some, but they're very niche and they only serve certain churches. But yeah, that's a good idea. So he went around Cape Town, Johannesburg churches, Durban churches, and these are mission church plants from all kinds of Baptist and Bible non-denominational mission boards over the years. And they were like, this is good. It is time. We we constantly are thinking, you know, oh, send us more missionaries. We can't do this on our own. But you know what? There are enough of our churches, they're big enough, we've got enough money, we need to step up and we need to start doing our part in the Great Commission. So Paul said, Paul's main ministry is to give me things to do, which is wonderful. So he says, he says, Dave, I need you to form this mission board. Let's pull a kind of a pilot group together. And um, so we got eight to ten guys together up in Johannesburg with permission from BMW USA. We took their doctrinal statement, but we simplified it a lot. And we took kind of their handbook, a little bit of their bylaws, and modified it for our purposes. They said we could use their logo, they said we could use all of their training materials, which I wrote most of it. So, okay. So we formed it, incorporated it, opened the bank account. Um, and then the guys, some on that pilot committee dropped off and said, praying for you, but I don't have the time to be involved in this going forward. So we got up 10, 11 guys, and Paul Sager and I were the only Americans. And um we chose a new, we call it managing director in South Africa, Dave Rudolph, who was from Zimbabwe years ago, has served as an American missionary, but he knows Southern Africa, he knows missions, he knows how to run things and organize things. He's phenomenal. He's been involved in like eight different church plants, so he's he's amazing. So Dave agreed to serve in that position. So Paul's job was to mentor him.

Seven Rivers Outreach And The New Clinic

David 1:01:50

So then we got another couple, William and Sharon Vaughn, and my job was to start transitioning finances because I opened the bank account and getting all of that kind of stuff to them. So we had a couple other board meetings, then Paul resigned, and I was the last one left on the board. And for my position, um they had they had another guy come on the board, his name was David Brown. I said, Well, my name's David J. Brown. He says, My name is David J. A. Brown. He had two middle names, and I said, Well, I was the first one. He said, No, I was born before you, so I'm the first one. So it was a we had a good time with that. But he came on, he's got all kinds of background experience with nonprofit organizations. So he's great with the legal stuff, the filing for tax stuff and banking. And so he came on. So I was the last one on, and then they were considering two or three guys to take my place, one of whom was this Craig Hison, who was the atheist who had come to faith in Christ way back at Santon Bible Church. And when I heard the board had selected him, I was on the Zoom call in that board meeting, and I was choking back tears. I said, Craig, haven't seen you in 21 years, man. He says, Dave, it is so good to see you. He's been an elder now, he's got teenage kids, he married a godly woman, still in the banking industry doing actuarial sciences, but so he brings that whole financial uh carefulness element. And then we were approached by a network of churches at a nonprofit down in Cape Town. They said we have a $1.2 million mountaintop camp property that we'd like to give to you. It's got a full uh commercial kitchen, big dining hall, a gymnasium. It's got like 11 chalets, it's got classroom space, and we're like, are you kidding me? Yeah, they had built it for certain purposes, but churches weren't using it and they were going in debt. Could we take care of their debt and they gift the rest of us? So we uh it was about maybe uh maybe $70,000 in debt, uh, which and then we had some guys, some donors come forward that basically just started giving hundreds of thousands of dollars in in RANs, of course, to this new mission board. There's a lot of excitement. Um, so all of the bills are paid, the property is secure. We're building additional stuff on the property. We did our first training there in March. 48 missionaries, white Afrikaans, white English, black of three or four or five different tribes, colored Indians, every people group, all the body of Christ, all in this one classroom. Mark, I was coming out of my skin with excitement. It was amazing. And this did was this where Adeline went to the you're speaking? Okay, okay. Adeline Mervin sitting right in the middle of that group. But but the budget is entirely paid for by South African businessmen, the property entirely South African. We we're not borrowing any money from American money. It's extraordinary. Yeah. So I mean, South Africans don't have a whole lot of money, and a lot of our African guys are going back into the African townships as missionaries with next to nothing. In fact, one guy, remember Moffat, the famous missionary quote in the morning light, I see the smoke of a thousand villages where the gospel he said that from Kouraman, where the Moffat mission station was. Well, now out in those, where those Thousand villages are they have churches out there, and there's no good church in Kouramont. So one of our guys is going to plant a church in Kouramont, which is really cool.

Mark 1:06:09

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that is really neat. Um, you know, as we talk about this and we think about all that God has done, uh, I would ask you guys a question just to kind of um ponder. Would you say that the ultimate success of a missionary is that sometimes he eventually becomes unnecessary? Yes. You know that a missionary is working themselves out of a job, literally.

David 1:06:35

Yeah, I was going to respond. That's our quote is my job is to work myself out of a job. You know, there are leaders who surround themselves with followers. A missionary cannot be one of those. There are missionaries, there are leaders who surround themselves with leaders. That's what a missionary has to be. And even if they're not leaders, sometimes, and that's what I love about these institute courses, they're made for the average guy in the pew. And sometimes you get a 65-year-old guy. I haven't I haven't memorized anything in 60 in 40 years since you know high school. But he gets a hundred on his verse quiz, and all of a sudden, there are things he just starts to see. I can study serious theology, I can do well on my my exam. I think I'll help teach the youth. I think I'll help in preaching. And you'll find leaders that were just diamonds in the rough by giving them a little bit of training, a little bit of joy, enthusiasm, and love, and they respond and they they grow up into something that God intended them. But a human, as a human, you wouldn't have necessarily seen that early on.

Mark 1:07:50

Sure. Sometimes it just takes that spark, you know, to get to get the flame ignited and like show them that I think sometimes people erroneously think that to be in ministry you have to be a spiritual superstar or you know, and that's just not the reality. We're all we're all broken sinners in need of redemption, that God just, you know, we say, Lord, use me and be willing to be used. Yeah, so um David, you wrote something in the questionnaire that that really caught my attention. Um, you said that your right and wrong boxes have gotten smaller while your

South Africans Launch Their Own Mission Board

Mark 1:08:30

different box has gotten much bigger. Can you help us with that and maybe help maybe some folks grow maybe in this area or understand some things the Lord has taught you?

David 1:08:41

It's uh in literature, it's called category width. And the idea is we have three boxes a right box, a wrong box, and a different box is in the middle between them. If you have spent all of your years in one culture, you know, you've lived in one area and all your families from around that area and so forth, you see things the way that you see them, the way that your life is, is the right way. And if somebody comes and they live different than you, then that's just wrong. You know, they don't they don't cut their grass like, but maybe every two, three weeks, you know, what's going on with those? That's just wrong, you know. Well, okay. So as you get more culturally exposed and you say, raw chicken feet, okay, okay. Um let's uh the Zulu guys, when the men get together, they have isteb. Istebe is the wooden table on which you eat a cow's head. So you kind of take a cow's head and you've drain most of the blood out of it, and you put it in the massive pot and you boil this thing for hours, and then you take it up out and you put it on, and you kind of peel back the skin and most of the hairs, not all of them. Um, and then you just take a knife and you're sitting around as eight or nine or ten men, and you just start working with your knife, taking off a little bit of the, you know, the meat on the nose or on the cheek or whatever, and you're you're talking, but you're eating a cow's head. Now, is eating a cow's head, is that right? Is it wrong, or is it just different? See, at first you you you bristle at that. Um children should be in school. Really? Who said? Well, the UN okay, that's interesting, you know. So you is poverty wrong, or is it just grinding poverty without necessary medicine and food to survive? Is there such a thing as the noble poor? You know, are we really going to try to eradicate poverty? Is that even possible? Uh things like polygamy and slavery, and you're gonna run into things, and it's it's not as quick an answer as they have on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and uh X, you know. These are complex and deep issues. And initially, when you go, there's no mayonnaise. This is a superstore, and you have no mayonnaise, you know. Is it right, is it wrong, or is it just different? Um, now here's here's a little bit of a problem, and we talk to missionaries about this in training. Your children sometimes can become so culturally malleable that their right and wrong box gets too small, and everything is just different. And so you get the whole LGBTQ. Oh no, that's not that's not wrong, it's just different. It's like, whoa, you know, and there are some things according to the Lord's word that he's given to us that are wrong anytime, any culture, they're wrong. But right, we and we need to be able to call a spade a spade, to call it wrong if we need to. But so that's that's what I meant about that different box.

Mark 1:12:21

It's funny. That's a good word. Yeah, we we definitely need to um uh be careful. You know, one of my one of the things I really, really appreciate about uh your ministry that I've seen and modeled so well is that sometimes, and I'm not being critical, but I am slightly being critical, uh, it bothers me when I see missionaries uh going to another country and trying to establish um American churches. Um, and and the reality is that's just not that's the whole reason that I'm doing this podcast. I want people to see that the kingdom of God is uh vast and different and beautiful and diverse and all those things are good. Um, but what a great reminder for us that um it's okay for things to be different. Obviously, the Bible is a standard, right? Where the Bible is black and white, we need to be black and white, but there's a whole lot of places in scripture um where there's uh there's freedom. There's uh, you know, uh the Bible does not give direct answers, or I think it gives principles and guidelines. Uh, but the reality is there's a lot of areas that are um places where there are those different boxes, and it's a good thing for us to, I think even, you know, I think even in American culture today, I feel like because we're post-Christian here in the United States, um, we're we would do well as as believers to approach our ministry to amongst our neighbors like we're missionaries. True. Like we're here in a culture where we don't necessarily fit in, and we've got to learn the language and we've got to learn how to reach these people where they're at. And it would be, it would do us well to step back and quit uh thinking right and wrong. Not you know, you know, I mean, obviously there is right and wrong, but what I'm saying is also saying, hey, you know what, just because they do something a little bit different from me doesn't make it wrong. And uh I think we would be more effective in our ministry in that way. Um, Karen, really quick. How would you say that you've changed having lived in South Africa, the ministry that you've been through, and and what would you say um is made South Africa maybe even become a part of you or the culture, the people?

Karin 1:14:43

It's a good question. We always change all the time, like you know, and when I first came to Africa, I was excited about serving the Lord, but I had fears if you would have told me that 30 years from now you're gonna be in a room all by yourself with 60 Zulu ladies teaching them the word of God, I would have said, Oh, that's a little bit beyond me. I don't think I could handle that. But God has gonna work in me, and I loved little Zulu ladies, I got to know their names, um, I was learning Zulu, I wasn't fluent, but I knew a little bit and I could connect with them, I knew their stories, some of them, and I love to hug on them and express my love for them. And when we said goodbye just a few weeks ago, I cried so heavily, and I could feel the love of Jesus come through me. Like I was just an instrument, and I told them, I said, I I have such a deep love for you, and I really believe it's the love of Jesus that is coming through. They were so precious, they had like nothing before, and they had made me a present. Um, they were given little pieces of yarn, and they had made it up little squares, and together they had made a little blanket, and we have it here in our home. And I was so touched by their thoughtfulness and kindness. And so I would say that I have changed, I have become partially South African. I'm a real mess because I'm partially Norwegian, I'm partially South African. I just know where I'm going. There you go. I'm going to that celestial city.

Mark 1:16:40

Yeah. That's good news. And um, you know, what a what a remarkable opportunity the Lord has given you to influence um these ladies. I mean, you know, these people that it's what encourages me about talking to missionaries and these stories that I'm hearing is the work that God is doing in places that they're just they're they're no named, you know, like they're just we'll never know this side of heaven. Um, and it's gonna be amazing uh to see heaven's gonna be a remarkable place. I mean, you know, it's gonna take all of eternity uh for us to share over and over again all the blessings and all the wondrous works of God. Um, and I that's really encouraging um even to know that um, you know, leaving them almost was like leaving a little bit of you behind because you were so closely uh intertwined with them in that work there um with those ladies in the knitting. Um, question for you, really quick, and uh just a couple more questions and we're done. Suppose with me that there would be a young couple that's listening who maybe senses the same thing that you felt years ago in reference to going to um South Africa or going to the missions in general, and we would say maybe they're leaning on the door of missions, but they're afraid to uh push it open, or maybe they're afraid it's gonna fall open, right? Uh, what would you tell them? What would you tell a young couple that would be maybe in that same position?

Right, Wrong, And The Bigger Different Box

David 1:18:11

Be eager to go, be willing to stay. Some people are eager to go, but not ready to go. Um, so I would say, you know, I think I think when we were dating, even when we were Christian school teachers or in law school, we were we were eager to go, but probably not ready to go just yet. Um, we need another seven years of ministry experience, mentoring, and maturity in our marriage and and that kind of thing. So we studied Bible and theology. And yeah, when you go to church, don't just sit there passively and listen. Take notes. Go up and challenge the pastor afterwards, ask questions, do independent reading, find out what he's going to speak on next week and study it as much as he's doing. Um, you know, to be so, in other words, you are you're living on purpose and you're living intentionally to be ready, such that if God calls you, you know, the main when someone applies to our mission, the first thing we do is write, we say, What does your church leadership think about you? Are you ready? And so we write to the pastor, we write to the deacon or elder board or whatever, and say, We have an application from Sarah or from Mike. Are you recommending them? Are they ready for cross-cultural ministry? And they might say, Mike who, Sarah Who, and that's not a good sign. Or sometimes they think they're ready, but they've done all of their ministry right in the local church. Well, maybe you need to do some VBS with some of those street kids and some of the kids that swear, and you know, maybe kids from different cultures get out of the church walls, get off the church property, and start meeting people. Go to restaurants where you can't understand the menu or the food and push yourself cross-culturally a little bit and see how you do with that. Um, now, not everyone is meant for third world and unreached people groups. Some people can transition to Europe, postmodern Europe, a very white-collar society, and they'll do okay. They're more heady, intellectual, apologetics, and theology kind of people. But your church will know there's nothing magical that happens on an airplane when you fly overseas, that you become a missionary on the flight somewhere about hour seven. No, you've got to be really wired and ready to go as a missionary even before you leave. So prepare yourself. Just lean on lean on the door of readiness, but say, I'm ready, but maybe I'm not prepared, and look to your church leaders to find out whether you're ready or not.

Karin 1:21:15

I just wanted to encourage people to really feel confident in sharing the gospel. If you if you don't know it, really spend time where it is so familiar that you own it and you can share it in a comfortable way, and ask the Lord for opportunities to share it with neighbors, to share with people that you develop a relationship with. And maybe it's just starting to sprinkle, dissolve, and you know, maybe you don't get to go through the whole gospel, but that you are really looking for opportunities to share that. It becomes so exciting to be able to be used by the Lord.

David 1:22:03

Yeah, I was challenged by Evangelism Explosion at the church that was our sending church. And I I don't follow that presentation, but I develop my own eight points with verses and illustrations. If somebody is interested and says, Well, I'd like to really memorize some version of the gospel, I'd be glad to email it to you. So yeah. Sure.

Mark 1:22:24

Yeah, we'll definitely we'll put that information in the show notes so people can connect with you on that. Um, I was gonna say, piggybacking off what you had mentioned about um, you know, uh sitting down with a young couple, um, how effective or where do you place the importance of maybe even someone uh participating in a missions trip or going to see it firsthand? How do you feel that is used by the Lord to prepare someone for cross-cultural ministry?

David 1:22:50

It's interesting to read the stats. I mean, before COVID, Americans were spending, American churches spent about $2 billion a year sending people on short-term missions trips. Probably 1% if that end up in missions. However, of those who end up in missions, almost everybody has been on a short-term missions trip. So I I would say, you know, even if it's visiting First Nations in Canada or uh work in Mexico if it, you know, so it's not so far away. Um there are missionaries who are willing to host. BMW has what's called the VIA program, the vision trip, internship, and apprenticeship. You can go for 10 days, you can go for three or four weeks, or you can go for three to six months to visit a missionary, live with a missionary, do some language learning, see if it's for you. For a family, obviously, that's not so easy.

Mark 1:23:46

So many people go on missions trips, and there's a lot of money, obviously, spent to, you know, and sometimes you can stand back and say, okay, well, is that a good use of funds or whatever? But on the flip side of that, you know, every person I talk to, like 95 or percent or higher of people that are on the mission field were affected through a missions trip. So it's almost like it's uh the Lord uses, I mean, the scriptures tell us that the Lord allows our eye to affect our heart. And obviously, you know, that's the reality of it. But I mean, I know even having lived uh cross-culturally, that there's just something unique about realizing that there's a whole nother world out there that's so different uh from you and and in so many ways. And yet, and then when you've when you meet other believers in those places, and it's just just really encouraging uh to know that God is doing a work in places that, you know, again, we we may never see or know, uh, but it it's it's a remarkable thing. As we kind of wrap this episode up, is there um anything particular that we can be praying for uh for the Browns and their future ministry and uh maybe you know help us kind of focus our prayers? I know that you've got you had mentioned seminary training, things that you're doing in Egypt, uh Lebanon, I think was one of them, Jordan, Uganda, um, all over the place. Uh, can you just maybe share with us a couple highlighted prayer requests that we could be praying for your ministry?

David 1:25:18

Um, Lebanon is closed right now, so that's always a prayer request because of Hezbollah's activity in Israel and Syria. It's just too dicey right now. Jordan, um, it depends on the month as to whether we can actually get in there and do classes. I think I might be teaching a class in Lebanon uh possibly in October that will be online for like five weeks in a row. But sometimes students are, you know, they're typing in, can't make class tonight. I, you know, the whole left, the whole west side wall blew out in my apartment building, and that was where my Wi-Fi was, and I have no Wi-Fi. I mean, it's it's hectic life there. So pray for our students in the Middle East. Uh, it's not easy, it's a very complex situation, and they live in enormous stress and fear. Um, obvious for us, filling of the spirit and and strength as we travel and teach, that's always a standing prayer request. I think um one for us now is there are gaps in between our travel. And I mean, I'm used to preaching and teaching like three or four times a week. So it's like, okay. So we are using this time a little bit as a sabbatical, which we have needed. We've never taken a sabbatical in 30 years. So we're just working on the house and traveling spot trips for missions, conferences, and that type of thing. But just to sense from the Lord, we've got our home church here is City Light Bible Church, which is an inner city church in Allentown. So Syrian refugees, Latinos, uh, blacks, whites, it's a great-looking church. It looks like a mission-field

Preparing To Go And Learning To Share

David 1:27:10

church. It's it's great. Um, but that's very enticing. And does City Light want to plant a daughter church? And would we get drawn into that? I I don't know. But so we're we're just trying to, you know, as my wife always says, we need to discern the Father's will, do the Father's will, and delight in the Father's will. And uh that discerning um is real critical at this point. We're 66, both of us, but we still got a bit of kick, and our minds are very sharp, and we have a lot of love for the international church. When we get in a foreign place where we don't understand any of the languages, we we kind of get all excited. It's just, you know, we say we're missionaries, we're home feels like a foreign place, and a foreign place feels like home.

Mark 1:28:00

So yeah, yeah. My last question, and I would like for both of you to take the opportunity to answer it, and it's this one. Um, from where you stand today, what have you learned about God's kingdom that you could have never learned if you would have stayed at home?

David 1:28:17

It looks and smells and sounds a whole lot different than I thought. It's bigger than I thought. God moves uh in ways that we cannot track him. For instance, we taught us, we teach a student named Musa in in Uganda. First time he came for classes, this is undergrad. First time he came for classes, he got a 38%. We're like, thank you, Sayanara. Bye, you know. Um, but he was so excited, he was so excited by what he learned in his introductory class. He went home, he led the chief to Christ, the witch doctor to Christ, and 15 people in the village. And then they decided we're gonna be a church and you're gonna be the pastor. He says, No, I just got kicked out of Bible college. So they said, No, you must go back. We will take up a collection. So they they're poor as they can get put all their money together. And don't you know he showed up at class in January and they're like, Musa, you're here? And so I think the first exam, he got like 48%, and he was so excited it was the highest percentage he'd ever gotten. And then I think his uh final exam was over 70%, and he was his the whole class was just dancing, and you know, that's not the way we do things in America. And if you think that the kingdom of God is like America, that's that's just uh that's not so. We've got hundreds of wonderful churches in Cuba, they're house churches, and they're so afraid that the the the dictators will all fall, and then Americans will come in and tell them all the things they've been doing wrong and bring millions of dollars in and ruin their churches. They're having a great time with a network of house churches. So the kingdom of God, our God delights in the little, the unknown, the unnoticed, the untraceable, untrackable. He's just He's messy, but it's perfect from His from his standpoint. But uh, if you feel like, well, we're gonna have to reach him or no one else will, you're mistaken. America is maybe, maybe 20%, maybe not, 15 to 20% of what's happening in missions in the world today. Sure. Palestine is the fourth greatest missionary sending area in the world. Who would have thought in the middle of a war? But so God, Aslan is on the move. God is God is moving, and uh he's uh we do feel like we're in the final ingathering of the harvest, though. Yeah, for sure. So those are some observations if you can.

Karin 1:31:09

I would I would just say that it's so exciting to live just walking with the Lord and see his hand. I feel like even my my world is growing so much. And when I think of heaven, it's not just Americans, you know, there'll be a lot of them. There's gonna be Norwegians and Germans and Americans and Africans and Asians and he loves us and he delights when we like him, when we see his face. So I I don't know. I wouldn't would have had any other life. We've had a rich, incredible life, no regrets.

David 1:32:06

It's funny. Look at pictures of the rapture, you know, Google that on the internet or something. It's all white people going up. Now they've got some people of color going up. When the rapture takes place, man, people that look like us are going to be a very small slice. It's mostly brown people. It's yeah, it's amazing and it's beautiful.

Mark 1:32:26

Yeah, it I was gonna say, you know, it one thing that I think about in listening to your story and all that God has done and is still doing is that um you you mentioned, Dave, that um God delights in the little things and and in the small things. And I think we see that over and over again in the scriptures. Um, you know, it was a little boy's lunch that he used to feed 5,000 plus people. You know, it was um it's the the people, you know, that the outcast of society that he was going to is the woman at the well, you know, and I I just I can't help but think of the fact that it's so remarkable to know that as big as this world is and as many people are here, that God is infinitely concerned in the lives of people that, you know, I mean, they're just they're they're it, I mean, I feel like I'm a nobody, they're a nobody, you know, like we just no one knows our stories, but God does. And then to hear like these, you know, hear to hear about someone like Moossa or Adeline and how God's fingerprints are all over their life, it's just so encouraging that uh when my life gets hard and when circumstances get difficult,

Prayer Requests And A Wider View Of God’s Kingdom

Mark 1:33:40

there's just a sense of comfort to know that God is so uh faithful and and caring and loving uh that he not only takes care of me, but he takes care of all of those that are in his, that are, you know, his children. And then I even think about the fact that he was even willing uh to even give us uh the time of day, if you will, um that you know, that what is man that thou art mindful of him? You know, we're just and it's we are blessed beyond measure. And you know, if he I told church uh this past Sunday night, I was like, if God, if God did nothing else for us, he's done far more than we ever deserved. Um, but he's a good father, yeah, and he's not gonna stop, right? And so there's just something so comforting about that. And it's so it's so good to hear these stories of what God is doing in lives of people. Um, you know, Craig, as he's taken over this position at uh the mission board, you know, and and how God is raising up people in South Africa to take the gospel. And the beauty of it is this, and I think we miss this sometimes in our American churches, is that these people that are coming from other places, they have different passports and they can get into places that uh the Americans cannot go. And and even like, you know, the fact that you're getting to train people uh even remotely, like with technology, you know, you're you're the impact that you're having for the kingdom goes far beyond, I think, what even we can think or imagine. And uh it's super exciting to hear what God is doing. David and Karen, thank you so much for sitting down and talking with me today. I hope this is an encouragement to everyone else as much as it's been to me. And uh, we'll definitely be putting some information in the show notes so people can connect with you uh further. And hopefully uh your ministry will continue to grow. And I can't wait to hear uh what what what's next, you know, because I know there'll be another chapter. Um so we're looking forward to it. Thanks again, guys. Thank you, Mark. Near the beginning of our conversation, David and Karen described their younger selves as leaning on the door of missions. They didn't know where God would send them or exactly what their lives would look like if that door opened. They simply wanted to be ready when it did. 32 years later, I think what struck me most is just how many doors God opened beyond that first one. Their story began with leaving home to serve in South Africa, but eventually South Africa became a part of home. People they helped disciple became pastors and church leaders. Believers they invested in began investing in others. And now South African churches are preparing and sending missionaries of their own. Maybe that's one of the beautiful things about the kingdom of God. We get to participate in what God is doing, but his work was never dependent upon us. David said that God's kingdom looks and smells and sounds a whole lot different than he once imagined. And Karen described discovering a family of believers that stretches across cultures and continents. Their years overseas didn't simply show them more of the world, it showed them something more about the breadth of God's kingdom. If you'd like to learn more about David and Karen and the ministry they continue to be involved in, be sure to check out the show notes for ways that you can connect with them further. You can also learn more about the work at Seven Rivers Outreach, including the ministry among the Zulu community that we talked about today. I'll be sure to include those links along with additional ministry information and specific ways that you can pray for the Browns in the show notes at kingdomwithoutborders.org. And if you know someone who is leaning on the door, wondering whether God may be leading them towards missions, I think this would be a worthwhile conversation to share with them. And until next time, remember this God's kingdom knows no borders, and he is still writing his story among the nations.